LARISSA: Welcome friends! You’ve found Janilee and Larissa at the corner of “I'm living my life” and “Someone else isn't happy about it.” This is VILIFIED. Each week we talk about life and healing, using a question as a starting point. Today we begin with this question. “Am I More Than My Label?” 

JANILEE: Yikes.

LARISSA: I know that's a really, really tough question because it's so easy to just limit yourself by labels.  I remember when I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child. I was eleven and I had spent so many years thinking I was the problem that I was so grateful for the diagnosis. It empowered me. And it's the only time I think I've ever had a diagnosis other than when I was probably too little to care where I didn't have something, where I limited myself because of it.  I remember being told things like, “You better learn how to say, would you like fries with that, sir? That's the only job you're ever going to get.” Or “You better learn how to juggle because the only college that's going to accept you is clown college.”

JANILEE: I hate that.

LARISSA: And I taught myself how to juggle with three different modalities.

JANILEE: I'm going to need to see that someday, by the way.

LARISSA: Okay! Yeah, I mean, I don't own juggling sticks anymore, so somebody's going to have to lend me some. But yeah, I used to be able to juggle with juggling sticks, like at the Renaissance Fairs type thing. But I remember taking what they would say to me as the label and believing it completely and running with it and being like, no, I am just too broken for marriage, or I am just a complete screw up or…  And I just broken because of my DTD, cPTSD, ADHD, depression, anxiety. 

JANILEE: All those acronyms!

LARISSA: Yeah, all of the acronyms that you're going to end up with when you go through things like this.  And rationally, I can say, “No, I am way more than my label.”  But do I believe it deep down?

JANILEE: Yeah. Do you feel it?

LARISSA: Exactly. Can I apply my rationality? 

JANILEE: That is one of the many important questions. I love that you touched on a couple of different things here, right? So the first one being that more often than not, labels come in groups. Right? We have a group of labels and we're this and this. You also mentioned that when you mentioned DTD, people who have been in abusive environments, especially from childhood, tend to very much relate to these labels that they're given because they are roles. Remember, we've talked about, like in a narcissist’s world, you have a role that you play when you are given a label. It is a role for you to live out and for you to fulfill. And so it makes sense that I can do these things. It makes sense that I'm worthless, it makes sense, blah, blah, blah, because there's a label to go with it, because there is a role, and that is a very safe and protected place to be. Breaking away from that role is terrifying.

LARISSA: It is. It is completely terrifying. And believing that innate worth, that is something that I have spent so much time determined to make sure that my child knows her worth from birth and that she will never question it. Because I know what that's like. And I know what it's like to be like, “Oh, I'm just a screw up.” and “I'm just too broken” and “it's me. Hi. I'm the problem. It's me.” And not comprehending that. No, it’s… just because… how do I explain this without sounding really preachy?

JANILEE: Hey, we're on a podcast giving advice sound preachy all you want.

LARISSA: Okay. Everyone sins.  Just because I was not perfect and did not do the perfect things while undergoing what I've been through in my life does not excuse their behavior. 

JANILEE: True.

LARISSA: And just because I didn't react perfectly in every situation does not mean that I'm the problem.  So that label that “No, you're the narcissist. No, you're the problem. No, you need to change” all that gaslighting, all that itty bitty, shitty committee in your head type crap, for lack of a better term. I have never come up with a better term.

JANILEE: I love it. Let's never, ever get rid of it. It's my favorite.

LARISSA: Sounds great. And so it's pushing past that and it's saying it's… You have the right to have grace.  You do not have to strive for perfection. You do not have to earn your love. You have innate worth. Everyone does. And you exist. Therefore, you matter.

JANILEE: I like that! You mentioned earlier that you try and instill these beliefs into your child, right? And we talked last week about how emotionally immature people very much have reactions similar to children because they are, of course, emotionally immature, right? So I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing some of the things that you do to help instill your daughter's innate worth in herself, because that is something that we can even use now as adults or whatever age we are, because we're emotionally at that same age. So pretend that I'm a little kid. Pretend I'm your daughter's age, and how are you going to teach me that my innate worth matters? And how are you going to help me identify who I am underneath all of the labels?

LARISSA: So one of the first things I said to her when she could start hearing, because she couldn't hear until she was about two. So I didn't start really reinforcing this verbally until she was about two, but it was, “Mommy loves you no matter what. Mommy will never abandon you.  Mommy is there for you.  Even when you don't like Mommy, Mommy is there.”  We have a phrase with little motions because that's what little children seem to really relate to. And it's, “I am smart, I am strong, and I am brave.” And she will literally - I'll be like, “Remember what we say about ourselves?” And she will literally go through the motions and say it now, because it's been two years of teaching her that phrase.  It's from “The Help” movie. “I am smart, I am important, and I am kind”, or something like that. But I moved it a little bit around because she needed to know she can do difficult things in that moment. She was going through a lot of medical stuff, and she needed to feel that empowerment there.  And I tell her every time I see her doing something great or good or even adequate anytime that I notice her doing - Like, for example, we were walking because we lived not too far from a grocery store, and it was a really nice day. We walked over to the grocery store and she literally closed captioned the entire walk. 

JANILEE: That's adorable by the way.

LARISSA: It was hysterical. I mean, like people were smirking at the cute, ridiculously funny situation as she's saying, “We're safe because I hold mommy's hand. Nobody got hurt because we're safe. We walk. Nobody got hurt because we're safe.” And I'm like, “I'm so glad that you're closed captioning everything we're doing.” And she goes, “Yeah.”  I'm accepting her for who she is. Which is tough sometimes for parents and it's tough for kids who grew up with those expectations of fulfill your parents desires and dreams and be the person that they never were able to be because of their own failed potential. 

JANILEE: You exist so your parents can live vicariously through you, yeah.

LARISSA: I t's like the Alanis Morissette song “Perfect”. {Editor’s Note: Larissa is referring to “Perfect” by Alanis Morissette. Janilee would like to add here that a song she enjoys is “Numb” by Linkin Park.} It literally talks about that. I used to blast that at the top of my car…

JANILEE: We'll link it in the show notes so you can blast it after this.

LARISSA: We totally will. When she [Larissa’s daughter] had her developmental disabilities diagnosis, I had to grieve the dreams and hopes I had for her.  And I am so grateful that I had that opportunity so that I could then just accept her for wherever she was. And my whole goal in life was to help her be the best she can be with whatever her potential is. It was a very freeing moment for me as well. I spent a good probable month after her diagnosis with severe autism going and speech issues and everything else and going, “I know my kid's going to suffer and that makes me so sad. And I had all these hopes for her and none of them are going to come true.” And then taking a step back and being like, “Wait a minute, this is my thought process being put on her. That's not okay.”  It's having that unconditional love for her and showing her that and showing up for her. Like when she's visiting her dad she's entitled to video visits. And as soon as I get the text message, I don't care where I am, what I'm doing, I make myself available. As soon as I get it I’m all “Yep, I’m here. Do you want me to call or are you calling?” So she knows that mom shows up.

JANILEE: Your actions reinforce your words.

LARISSA: Exactly, and then those words just build her up as well. I mean, like the other day, she was talking to her OT [Occupational Therapist], and she's become very sassy in the last weeks.  And we've been doing a program to earn dollies because Mommy can't go to the dolly store every day and buy her a new doll.  So teaching her to earn it using puff balls. And the OT student goes, “So have you earned any puff balls for your dollies to go to the dolly store?” And she goes, “No, I 4 not 30.” And I sat there, I'm like, “Are you Sassy?” And she goes, “No, I’m [her name].”  I'm like, “Are you a Sassy [her name]?” and she goes, “Yes.” And so it's not telling her she's wrong in that situation.  It's giving her that empowerment to know that her reality is hers. And it is okay to have.

JANILEE: Yeah. It's okay to be frustrated that you're 4 and not 30.

LARISSA: Yeah and that you have to earn, dollies. It's okay to feel however she feels. And I tell her that. I'm like, “You know; however you are feeling, I understand. I love you. I am here for you. Let's work through it.” And we do our deep breathing - we call it hot cocoa breaths. Or I’ll be like, “I need you to wait, put your hand on your tummy and take some deep breaths.” or stuff like that - stuff I've learned through her teachers and through her therapists, because that's all I can do.  It's been a very huge transition for me to learn that I can't be Marlin from “Finding Nemo” and protect her from everything in life. Because then nothing will happen, and she'll never grow and she'll never become whatever she's supposed to be. And so, accepting that and learning to not try and control her experiences in her life has been a tough thing because I’ve tried so hard to protect her from everything. Nobody wants their kid bullied. Nobody wants their kid to go through situations of harm or scare or pain. But you can't protect them. You can only help them walk through it. And helping that person walk through that shows them that they have that worth.  So, it’s interesting because I'm re-parenting myself as I do it. And that's a term that not everybody probably has heard or understands.

JANILEE: We talked about it last episode.

LARISSA: Yeah, that's true.  So one of the things that a therapist told me yesterday was, make a list of the things you can do.  I like, I can breathe, I can walk, I can do this. And just literally start realizing that you have more power than you realize.

JANILEE: Yeah, I can think. I can listen to podcasts,

LARISSA: I can go outside, which is not something I was always allowed to do.  I can listen to podcasts. I can read, I can grow, I can listen to music, I can do dishes, I can take a shower because I have enough running water without being called lazy, narcissistic, possessive, and selfish for wanting one every two weeks.  It's stuff like that.  It's learning to appreciate what you do have and then appreciate what it took to get you there.

JANILEE: I feel like we've gone on a little bit of a tangent away from  the main topic here, but I love hearing about  the excuse me. I loved hearing about all those things that you do for your daughter. And my next kind of question that I feel like can help bring this back to how we as adults are going to process who we are is do we do any of those things for ourselves? Do we look in the mirror and say, “I am smart, I am brave, I am strong.” Do we give ourselves the grace to grow? Do we allow ourselves to be sassy and say, “I don't like the fact that I have to earn money to pay for pizza. I wish I got free pizza.” Do we allow ourselves to feel all of these emotions that you are providing your daughter the space to feel

LARISSA: and see - That's where I struggle is I can tell a friend, I can tell our listeners, I can tell my daughter; I could tell a complete stranger, “it's okay to give yourself grace. It's okay to not be ready to leave. It's okay to apply that strength wherever you need it right now. It's okay to just be surviving in this moment right now, and it's okay to take it moment by moment.” I can't tell myself that and that's.  That's part of that. I don't know if I would label it as emotional immaturity or more of, like a codependency or like that toxic empathy thing where I apply it to everyone but myself. I don't know.

JANILEE: How about a lack of individuality? Because that's something that we've all been denied throughout our entire lives, right? So we started with the first question of am I more than my label? And already we're talking about, well, who are we? Right? We're getting down past all of the labels, and there's a couple of things I want to cover about labels. But since we're here in this conversation, what does it mean to be an individual, right? And what does it mean to be ourselves? In just scrolling through social media, I've seen probably five or six times in the past week, somebody, like, quoting, “When I don't respond, it's because I'm busy. But when so and so doesn't respond to me, it's because they hate me and I'm the most annoying person in the world.” And just very much bringing to light these sort of thoughts that we tend to have about ourselves. And I'm grateful that they're out there, and I think it's awesome that we're experiencing it and understanding we're not the only ones that do. But at the end of the day, when we have never been allowed to be an individual, when we've never been allowed to have a sense of identity and a sense of self, there's not going to be, like we talked about last time, that mohawk of self-awareness neurons. There's not going to be anybody home. And so how do we discover who we are? How do we discover ourselves? I wrote down three things.  Do you want to just jump into those, or did you have any thoughts you want to say first?

LARISSA: Let's hear what you're thinking. I have some thoughts too, but yeah.

JANILEE: Okay, so we'll start with these, and then you throw your thoughts in as we go through them.

LARISSA: Okay.

JANILEE: So I wrote down I honestly spent so long thinking about this, and I came up with three things that I was never allowed to do when I wasn't allowed to be whoever the hell I wanted to be - whoever the hell I was. And that was:

I wasn't allowed to want. I wasn't allowed to think, and I wasn't allowed to do.

LARISSA: Yeah, those are good. Those are really good examples.

JANILEE: Because you can break each of those down. I wasn't allowed to want to sing. I wasn't allowed to want certain food. I wasn't allowed to want this, that, or the other. I wasn't allowed to think of things differently in the way I'd been taught. I wasn't allowed to think about what I wanted to study in college. I wasn't allowed to think about different things to do in life. I wasn't allowed to do… I wasn't allowed to try new things.  I wasn't allowed to do anything that didn't what I was told to do. I wasn't allowed to do something for the sole purpose of “I wanted to do it.” And so everything that I thought about fit into one of these three categories. And then I kept pondering and thinking over and mowing over these things. And I realized that at the root of all of these things I wasn't allowed to do was feeling.

I wasn't allowed to feel it.

Because if you don't feel emotions, you don't want to do things. If you're not allowed to feel anything, you're not going to think of things in a different way than your parents think. If you're not allowed to feel, you have no desire to do anything different,

LARISSA: And you have no need to stand up for yourself.

JANILEE: Yeah.

LARISSA: Because you're not being injured, you're not being hurt, you're not feeling.

JANILEE: And at the root of not being able to feel, why do we not feel? So that we fit into a role self and serve someone else and fit into their life the way that they want.

LARISSA: It is a trauma response. 

JANILEE: It is a trauma response.

LARISSA: It’s the fawning.

JANILEE: You can have two different people who feel things and they're still going to have conflict. Okay? This isn't a way to say that, oh, no conflict will ever occur if you don't think or feel. No conflict is going to happen whether you have two emotionally mature or two emotionally immature people or one emotionally mature and one emotionally immature. Conflict is going to happen and we can deal with it. (And we'll keep talking about these things going forward, so keep coming back and listening.) So conflict is going to happen. But there's a difference between a shell of a person, a role based person interacting with a with anyone else and a person who knows who they are, a person who allows themselves to feel interacting with anyone else.

LARISSA: I saw a meme the other day that goes along with this and it's: “A person playing a role will always eventually forget their lines.”

JANILEE:  Yeah. Because it's not who we are. If we follow that meme thought along, eventually if you're doing improv, you're going to give up because you're just not that into it. Or if it's something that you're really passionate about, you're going to come up with lines no matter what, no matter how crazy the situation gets. And all of this, again, coming back to are you allowing yourself to feel? Emotions are very powerful things, and very often when we are resisting emotions, it's because down we know those emotions will lead to change. And so the question that we're going to talk about next week, by the way, is “How do I take the first step?” So if you are in an abusive relationship and you do want to take that first step.  How you how you do that. But the reason that I felt it important to talk about, you know, “Am I more than my label?” first, before we talk about taking the first step is because we need to understand who we are and what we want and what we feel. Because if you decide to take the first step because someone on a podcast told you to, that's not a good reason. If you decide to take the first step for anyone else, it's not a good reason. You have to take it for yourself. And how do you take it for yourself? Well, you have to know who yourself is.

LARISSA: Yeah, well and it's important when you're allowing yourself to be yourself, to be cautious of gaslighting yourself.  That's something that I catch myself doing. Or “should”ing - I call it “should”ing on yourself. “I should be doing this, I should be doing better, I shouldn't be struggling this hard. It shouldn't be this difficult.” Because then you're putting yourself into a new box instead of allowing yourself to become more than that label, more than that box. 

JANILEE: So really quick, if you are unsure what it means to gaslight or “Am I gaslighting myself?” that… don't worry about that for now. Again, we'll talk about it going forward.

LARISSA: Yeah.

JANILEE: Just use the second example Larissa gave us there: Don't should on yourself. So if you ever find yourself talking to yourself or thinking to yourself, “I should this or I should that or anything should be different than the way that it is.”, that's something to keep an eye out for. Because if something should be different, it means that you were wronged by someone… Or you assume that you were wronged by someone. Because remember, no narcissists think that the world should revolve around them, right? {Editor’s Note: Here Janilee is referring to the way in which narcissists think the world does revolve around them. Not “should” but “does”.} But if you're thinking like one of the examples like Larissa gave, “It shouldn't be this hard.” It is that hard. So just take the should out and say, “It is that hard.” Like, you look yourself in the mirror and say, “I'm smart, I am brave, I am strong. It is this hard.” You don't even have to look yourself in the mirror, because I know that can be hard for a lot of people, but just think it. Say it, whisper it to yourself with all of the energy that you have. Like, “it shouldn't be this hard. I shouldn't be this weak. … I am this weak.” That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you, but it just means that right here, right now, everything is this hard for you. And the first place to start is to stop denying your own reality to yourself.  And then you can find other people who don't deny your reality as well. But if you're constantly denying your reality, you could meet me or Larissa in person, and we couldn't reinforce your reality. We couldn't be that support that you need, because we don't know what that reality is about who you really are, because you don't know.

LARISSA: It's also important to not “can't”.  I know that's double negative, but anyway, with the can't… I remember when I got the restraining order against someone and  I was shaking. I was physically fearful. I had my child present. I had an advocate with me, but I was so afraid. And I just kept whispering to myself, “I can do difficult things.”

JANILEE: That doesn't mean you have to do them alone, but that you can do them.

LARISSA: And it also doesn't mean that you're not afraid of them. It's okay to be afraid. It is okay to have the feeling.

JANILEE: More than just being okay. It's normal, right? A lot of the times I found that when people say, “Well, it's okay to feel this,” … it's normal! Right? And that's part of what we're doing here. You have been cast as the villain, right? But there's a lot of TV shows and movies that focus on the villain's life story, and all of a sudden, the villain becomes a complex, three dimensional character. “Okay. I can see why they do that. Yeah.” And all of a sudden, your complicated feelings about the villain change because it's normal, because it's something that everyone relates to. It's a universal phenomenon. And you're not crazy. You're not thinking up random stuff. You're just experiencing life for yourself for the first time. And that is terrifying, but it's normal, and it's okay. And honestly, if you didn't experience it, I would be a little worried about…

LARISSA: your well-being.

JANILEE: Yeah! Usually if you don't experience it,  it usually means that you're numbing out. It usually means that you're not quite aware of your own situation, and that's normal. I spent years disassociating. My therapist was like, “Hey, do you disassociate?” I'm like, “no”. And then a couple of months later, after some therapy, I was like, “Oh, shit. Yeah. No, I was disassociating that entire time.”

LARISSA: You were like “Okay, so that's also dissociation? Oops…”

JANILEE: My therapist literally gave me this list of nine different things that you can do to dissociate. She would ask me, “Do you do any of these?” I'm like, “No, I don't do any of them.” A couple of months later, I looked at that same chart, and I'm like, “Yeah, no, I was doing all of those.”

LARISSA: Every single one of them. And it's normal to need to dissociate when you're in the crux of that trauma and you're being traumatized by someone.

JANILEE: It’s a survival mechanism.

LARISSA: Yeah. When you're surviving. And so I think it's important to understand that.  It is almost impossible to become more than your label during episodes of abuse, and that is normal.

JANILEE: I like that you brought that up, because I want to circle back to the few things I wanted to talk about labels. First of all, when we have a label, it on a broad societal level. A label serves the purpose of helping people find like minded individuals. I am a theater nerd. That is a label. It also helps me find other theater nerds and people that I can say, “Oh, my goodness, did you hear the new musical??” and go crazy about, right? It's a helpful label. And even when we come to mental health things, there are like on social media, a lot of people are like, oh, maybe if you have ADHD, maybe you relate to this, right? There is a fine line to walk between self diagnosis, which you shouldn't do, and understanding that you relate to a lot of these things. And I'm not alone. And there is a community of people who fit this label. And that is a good, positive example of what labels can do. It can also marginalize and discriminate and make people “less than” and make them be “others”, right?

LARISSA: Yeah.

JANILEE: But when it comes down to it, labels are just a thing. Whether or not they're used to help you find a happy, vibrant community, or whether or not they're used to marginalize and discriminate, that comes down to how other people perceive labels. And all you can do is control how you perceive labels.  And so if you see someone who has cPTSD, you can say, “Oh, they're crazy.” Or if you see someone who has BPD, you can say, “Oh, well, they're just never the same person.” Or you can say, “They're a person who is this. They're a person who just happens to have bipolar, where it's hard for them to manage their emotions.” Right? Or “There's a person who it's hard for them to manage their trauma.” OR you can view them as Larissa. Or Janilee. Or Chester (the name of my teddy bear right next to me). Right? You can view them as individuals, and that's where the power comes in. It's helpful to have labels in a broad sense, but when it comes down to it, when it comes down to your friends and who you are and who other people are, labels just disappear. And I want to share something that happened when I was first going to my trauma informed therapist. She had to test me for all of these things, and I took all of the tests and everything, and then I came back, and I asked for the results. And my therapist looked at me and she said, “I will tell you the results if you want to know, but it's very important for me to point out to you that I don't see a collection of labels. I see Janilee. And I am treating Janilee. And I'm a therapist for Janilee. And yeah, maybe results of these tests can help me help you better, but I don't care about what the results of those tests are.” And to this day, I don't know what the results of those tests were.

JANILEE: I only have one clinical diagnosis of major depressive disorder because I needed that to get my antidepressants, So for insurance and health care and blah, blah, blah reasons, I have one clinical diagnosis, but I've taken tests for so many other things. That doesn't mean, however, that I can't watch a video about what ADHD is like for people and say, “Oh, yeah, I relate to that” or watch a video about what OCD is like for other people and be like, “Oh, yeah, I relate to that.” But at the end of the day, I'm not a person who has DTD and cPTSD and ADHD. I'm not a bunch of acronyms, I'm Janilee, DAMMIT!

LARISSA: Yeah. And it's important to also recognize that labels don't just come from self diagnosis or diagnosis by a provider, but they come from the abuser, from the narcissist, from the actual villain in your situation.  And it's important to not allow your abuser to diagnose you because it's just as toxic to your system as self diagnosis is.

JANILEE: Yeah, just like… even if we're taking a diagnosis out of it. When it comes down to labels, I was labeled the “drama queen”. I was the one who was overly dramatic about everything. Do you want to see me get really passionate about something? I'm overly dramatic! which one am I going to choose to view it as: dramatic or passionate? And then you take into account situational factors. Was I being dramatic or was I responding appropriately to being abused? And all of these labels have two different ways to look at them the positive and the negative. But the one that I care about and the one that Larissa cares about and the one that people who love you care about is the third one. The “Who are you?”

LARISSA: Exactly. And I think that  even people who have not gone through being vilified, who have not gone through narcissistic abuse, who have not gone through abuse of any sort,  they struggle with who they are. It's okay. It's normal. It's completely normal to struggle with who you are, especially when you've spent so much of your life being marginalized by the people hurting you. And so I'm wanting to make sure that people aren't like, “Oh, well, I was told that I'm just histrionic, or I was told  I have a crisis of faith and I need to seek the Lord instead. Or I'm just being…” like when someone told me that I was narcissistic, possessive, lazy and selfish for wanting a shower once every two weeks me that  it's normal to not want to believe it, but it's also normal to start  believing it when you're told it enough.

JANILEE: Yeah. And it comes back to be mindful of who is putting these labels on you, even if it's yourself, even if it's someone that you really care about, right? And kind of like what I was saying, you don't want to believe these things, but then you do. If you believe these things about yourself, that's totally okay, because you are believing what you've been told. And here's something, if you've felt at all seen or recognized in any episode that we've put out so far, we're not telling you who you are. And that's an important thing to remember, is we're not saying that you are this or you are that. Yes, part of it is because we don't know you all individually, but the main reason is because you are you. And there is a singular person that is there. And so if you believe these things about yourself, that's okay. But just investigate throughout time as you're able to. “Am I really this way? Am I really selfish? I did this thing that was very kind. Maybe I'm not selfish.” And that's it just the thought of “Maybe I'm not.” That's where it starts.

LARISSA: Yeah. And for example, I was labeling myself last episode with toxic empathy codependency tendencies and, um, low emotional intelligence.  I'm not putting myself into a box with that label. I'm saying, I know that I recognize in myself that I'm struggling with these things and I'm going to work on them. And that's the difference between  labeling yourself, diagnosing yourself, whatever that might be, and and just recognizing who you are. 

JANILEE: It's a different way of viewing the label.  Are you only an emotionally immature person? No. Is it an aspect of yourself that labeling it helps you treat it and understand it and manage it better? Yes. But what's that third way of looking at the label?  You're just you.

LARISSA: Well, and your label doesn't exist in a vacuum.

JANILEE: Yeah. Right. And so  we can conclude up on other thoughts, but the main points that I wanted to get through were one, labels have three different ways of looking at them, right? Positive, negative, and personal. And the second thing was, once you get rid of the labels and you get down to the root of who are you Actually? it's going to be things that you want, things that you think and things that you do. And at the root of that is what you feel. And what you feel is important and it can be terrifying. And there are waves. One of the best visualizations that I was given about emotions is that they're all like waves. They ebb and they flow, and they have high, intense points, and then they lessen off, right? But at the end of everything.  The emotion goes away unless you put up a wall and try and hold the water back, because that's just not going to work. So if you feel an emotion and we'll talk later about different ways to feel some emotions safely, we can even throw a couple of those in here now. {Editor’s Note: this happens later on in this episode.} But when you have an emotion, feel the emotion safely and then let it pass. Because the more that we resist those emotions, the harder they are to handle. But also remembering the reason we resist those emotions is because they lead to wanting, and they lead to thinking, and they lead to doing. They lead to individuality.

LARISSA: And that's what most of us have spent so much time being told to avoid.

JANILEE: Yep. But you have permission from me and Larissa! So listen to this. Anytime you need, you have permission to be yourself. You have permission to be yourself.

LARISSA: And you have permission to choose who you are. 

JANILEE: Yes. 

LARISSA: And honestly, until you told me that, Janilee… when you told me that, it was the most empowering moment,  because nobody had ever given me that permission. And I needed that. And I didn't realize how much I needed someone to say, “You have permission.”

JANILEE: Yeah. And we’ve spent all of our lives seeking permission. Right. I remember  my mom had done something that really infuriated me, and I was living with  some friends at the time. And I knocked on the door of my friend my age, and I was like, “Hey, am I allowed to be mad at my mom?” And she was like, “Yeah.” I was like, “Okay.” And I just went back to my room, and I got mad at my mom. Just literally walking across the hall, and being like, “Am I allowed to be mad? I am? Okay, I'll be mad, I’ll be mad.” It is so empowering, and it's a very weird thing, especially, and I'm sure the first time I said it to you, Larissa, you're like, “Okay, thank you. I don't need permission for this…” but does actually feel different.

LARISSA: It hit me so hard the first time you said it to me. It was like, “Oh, yeah, that's what I'm trying to do here, is tell myself I can't.  And that I shouldn't and that it's not allowed because I'm in my trauma brain and I'm re-experiencing the trauma. I'm in the midst of somebody traumatizing me.” And it’s in those moments, it's okay. And you have permission to reach out to a wise counsel, for lack of a better term, a friend, your tribe, a counselor, an advocate at a shelter or through a domestic violence program.  The boys and girls hotline,

JANILEE: The suicide prevention hotline as well.

LARISSA: Yeah.  Any of those resources. Any resource you can find you have permission to reach out to  any resource you find and want or need?  And you have permission to need. {Editor’s Note: Episode 5.5 is all about these types of resources. Check out that page if you need. You have our permission. :) }

JANILEE: And you have permission to reach out and then not take that advice. Advice is just advice. Advice is not dictation on telling you how to live your life.

LARISSA: Yeah. 

JANILEE: You have permission mission from me, Janilee, and your permission from Larissa to be yourself, to figure out who you are, to feel the emotions, to let them come and let them go. And I mentioned earlier, so I want to cover just one here in this episode. We'll talk more in depth about this in a later episode.  But one thing that I'll share one thing and then, Larissa, you share another thing about safe ways to feel emotions. Okay?

LARISSA: Okay.

JANILEE: The one that really worked for me because I'm very in my head and I think a lot was to give my brain something to think about. So I would feel the emotion and I would pick a category like plants or flowers or like airplanes or types of cushioning on a bed or something, and I would go through the alphabet and I would say, let's say it was like vehicles. So A would be airplane and B would be boat, and C would be car, and D would be driver. Sure, that works. And e would be elephant. That can be a mode of transportation, right? And I'd work my way through the alphabet because I gave my brain something to do while my body was physically experiencing the emotion. And so I was busy. I was thinking things. I was doing things in a way where I only had to half feel the emotion because if I had to fully feel the emotion, it would have overwhelmed me. And so I gave my brain an escape. And that is one of the first things I did when I had to start feeling emotions. What about you, Larissa? 

LARISSA: Well, any mindfulness technique is great there, but the one that comes to mind is what I used as a kid.  And I didn't even realize what I was doing in the moment. I was like, Why do I do this? This is weird. This was at the time when you'd have those digital clocks that would be your alarm clock. And I would stare at the numbers and add them up in different ways to make different numbers. And it basically just occupied.  It took the logical side of me and the sciency mathy, which I'm horrible at math - I can do nursing math. I have that down pat. Algebra one, I took it four times, you know, but you do want me doing your IV calc, you just don't want me doing your taxes.  And I would just sit there and add up these numbers and move the line  around to make different numbers. And it took  the ability to rationalize or take the feeling away, like, to wish it away or logic it away or box it up and stick it in the corner in my brain, all of those things. I couldn't do that anymore. But another one that I do sometimes if I'm really starting to panic in that emotion and in that moment, is I'll go and get an ice pack and I'll stick it on my neck.  And it somehow helps calm my vagus nerve so that I'm able to just feel and I get as close as I can to the ground, and I just give myself that moment.

JANILEE: So here is another really funny kind of coping mechanism, I guess and you mentioned mindfulness techniques. There is one that pops in my head is like the 54321, right? Five things you can touch, four things you can see, three things you can hear, two things you can smell, one thing you can taste. So just kind of being aware and being in your present moment and when you're doing that and you're trying to relax, one thing that my therapist pointed out to me that I didn't realize is that your butt is almost always clenched. And so when I'm in those situations now, even if it's like I'm trying to fall asleep, the first thing I do is I think, “Is my butt clenched?” And 99% of the time my butt is clenched. And to like actually, I have to use brain power and think “Butt muscles stop clenching.” and then they relax. And because of how your body stores a lot of the energy when your butt relaxes, a lot of your other muscle groups do as well. And if you're not able to do that with just your brain, you can just pretend that you're warming up your hand by sitting on it and just poke your butt with your fingers and that will make the muscles respond to it. And then your butt can unclench. And most of the time when you can unclench your butt, the rest of your body can follow in being able to relax.

LARISSA: Interesting.

JANILEE: Try it out. Maybe it's just me, but that would….

LARISSA: No, no, I noticed it when you said it. The moment you said it, I'm like, “OH!”

JANILEE: “My butt is clenched. When did that happen?”

LARISSA: Right?  And another one that's great if you're in a situation where  you have like five minutes and.  You're around other people, you're riding on the subway. As long as you can close your eyes, it's safe. 

JANILEE: So don't do it while driving.

LARISSA: Exactly. Or flying an airplane, or…

JANILEE: I mean, you can pull over if you're driving. I wouldn't recommend pulling over the  airplane, but tell your copilot to take over if you're flying an airplane.

LARISSA: Or put it on autopilot.

JANILEE: But if you’re driving a car you can pull over.

LARISSA: Yeah, exactly. But in that moment is earth, wind, fire  and water. 

JANILEE: *sings* Do you remember? {Editor’s Note: this is a reference to the song “September” by the artist “Earth, Wind and Fire” which you can listen to here.}

LARISSA: Right? So stick your feet on a surface, and that is your earth.

JANILEE: Even if the floor of a car.

LARISSA: Yeah.

JANILEE: Or a cockpit.

LARISSA: Yeah. Or whatever it might be. I'll even put my hands on the ground sometimes instead of my feet. And then you make more spit in your mouth for water. And then you take five deep breaths [for wind]. Fire is… imagine yourself in a safe place, free. Wherever you feel free.  And so I go back to when I was at a summer school for an international summer school, and I was sailing the Isle of sky, and I'm standing on the boat, and it's just me and the scenery,  and that serenity will help calm me down so that I can feel and take it in and breathe it.

JANILEE: And even if you haven't actually ever experienced a safe place, for me, when I started, my safe place was imagined. It was somewhere I'd never been.  It was actually a meadow. So I’ve found that often safe places tend to be nature related, but they don't have to be. But just anywhere  where you feel free. Even if you are currently physically trapped in your body and your feet are on the ground and you're taking those breaths and your mouth is full of spit, but your mind is going to be free.

LARISSA: Yeah. And it's okay. You have permission to feel free.

JANILEE: And keep in mind, these are ways to help us feel emotions in a safe way. It doesn't necessarily help us process emotions and kind of solve them. Not that we can solve emotions, but managing emotions is a different thing that we don't have all the time to get into right here and now. But yes, this is just feeling emotions, because the first step to being able to manage or process or understand emotions is to feel them and to stop resisting them. 

LARISSA: To recognize that emotions are okay and normal. Exactly. Another one that I was taught is the breathing game and this one can be great when you're trying to help a little kid or yourself, or…

JANILEE: Is it hot cocoa breaths you told us about?

LARISSA: Yes, it's a hot cocoa breath. So they're very similar. So the hot cocoa breaths is you literally pretend like you were hold a cup of hot cocoa and it is steaming and you  through your nose. So you smell the hot cocoa through your nose and you lift up the cup when you do it like you're drinking it. And then you set the cup down.  And the breathing game is you breathe in for 1 second, hold for 1 second, breathe out for 1 second, breathe in for 2 seconds, hold for 2 seconds, breathe out for 2 seconds and then three and see how far you can get.

JANILEE: Don't pass out.. when you feel like you're going to pass out. You can start working backwards from that as well. So let's say you got up to like 5 seconds, then you start going back down to 4321 and you go up and down as many times as you need. There's also gifs that you can look up that have those objects that will expand and then contract. They'll get smaller. And so you breathe in while it's getting bigger and then you breathe out while it's getting smaller. So if you're a visual person, those are pretty easy to find as well.

LARISSA: They also have these balls that they use with autistic children and it opens and closes. I have no clue what they're called. Hopefully someone can tell us.

JANILEE: We'll find it and put in the show notes.

LARISSA: Perfect.  I will do some googling. And it can be a really great if you're a visual person or you need that visual stimuli to also help you calm, that can help too. Or if you're younger or whatever that might be, it's finding what's best for you. I mean, for my kiddo, hot cocoa breaths worked. For me, earth, wind, fire and air worked. So it just depends on the person. And you might even be doing things and don't realize that you're doing it to ground yourself and to keep yourself in the moment and have that mindfulness. 

JANILEE: So just honestly be aware, think about it. To kind of wrap up, I feel like that's a really good transition. So thank you for that, Larissa.

LARISSA: Yay!

JANILEE: But when you have your labels, remember to view them from those three different lenses. First of all, who's it coming from and is it a positive or a negative or an individual perspective. And then decide whether or not you want to accept that label. Because if you don't accept it, then it doesn't stick and you're fine. And then the second thing that we talked about is being yourself and being that individual. So allow yourself to feel and see if those feelings lead to any sort of wanting, thinking or doing. And in all of this, remember that you are worthy and that you are amazing and that your worth  doesn't change. You're still just as awesome and worthwhile and worth having around now as you were before we even started doing this podcast and as you will be ten years from now. And so what we can do to help with that is what Larissa said. We don't “should” on ourselves and don't “can’t” on yourself. And if you do, just take a breath and be like, “Well, I just “should” on myself. And that's okay.” And then you just move on.

But also there is a quote from New Girl. (I love that show.) But Jess is all really uptight and anxious, and her mom comes in and says, “Jess, you got to relax. It's just life.” And I feel like for those of us who have never been able to relax a moment in our life, it's a near impossible thing to do. But just remember, it's just life. And if you “should” on yourself for a moment or “can't” on yourself and you recognize it, that's progress. That's a good thing. And you don't need to get mad at yourself for it because that's progress. 

LARISSA: And everyone is a work in progress.

JANILEE: Even me.

LARISSA: Yeah, everyone is. All of us are. And it's okay and normal.

JANILEE: And just because we're here doing the podcast, it doesn't mean that we're like, “Oh, look at us. We have successfully completed everything and we are the wise people who will pass on our knowledge.” No, we're just saying: “We've been through hell and here are some tips on how we got through hell. So if they help you through your hell, that would be great. Come join us in the Villains club!”

LARISSA: Exactly. I like that. The Villains club. I really like that.

JANILEE: Maybe we need to change our introduction to saying “Welcome Villains” instead of “Welcome friends.”

LARISSA: Ooo that's a good idea.

JANILEE: Or I don't know, we'll have to find a combination of it because I like friends. I like…

LARISSA: Welcome friends to the Villains Club.

JANILEE: Welcome to the 6th meeting of the Villains Club. Welcome.

LARISSA: Hi, my name is Larissa, and I'm a villain.

JANILEE: Hi, my name is Janilee and I am a villain as well.

LARISSA: Eventually, healing happens. And it's okay to have two steps forward, one step back, three steps backward, two steps forward, because it’s progress each time.

JANILEE: And I will reiterate that where I'm at now - years, like, over a decade of just trying to understand and just trying to learn and doing all of this unnecessary research, like what felt at the time, useless research. Because I just needed to understand. And I just wanted to know. And I'm still where I am. And I still struggle to sleep most nights because of my trauma.  It's just life. Just because I struggle doesn't mean I can't enjoy life in the process.

LARISSA: I still call Janilee going, “I'm hyperventilating, and I need help and to help me!” and it's okay.

JANILEE: And I do it to friends as well. And another thing that I just remembered, because Larissa said she called me. I told Larissa to go get ice cream.  Because just because your life sucks doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it, too. And so even when your life sucks, find a friend who's going to say, “I demand photographic proof that you ate ice cream because you need something good in your life today.”

LARISSA: And she did. I had to send her a picture of it. I mean, it was a tiny little thing because I had, like a dollar on me. But hey, it's okay.

JANILEE: You find a dollar, you spend it on ice cream. Because every day of your life is so hard and you're spending all of your energy just to survive. And even thinking about taking that first step is exhausting. And we'll go into that next week. So come back. But for this week, just remember that we love you. You're amazing, and you're perfect the way you are. And thank you. Thank you for listening to us and trusting us to help you because are we're doing our best?

LARISSA: Yep. So come back next week and we will keep doing what we're doing.

JANILEE: Sounds good. See you then friends! This is VILIFIED.