JANILEE: Hello, friends. Welcome. You have found Janilee and Larissa at the corner of I'm living my life and Someone Else isn't happy about it. This is vilified. Each week we talk about life and healing using a question as a starting point. Today we begin with this question therapy.

LARISSA: Wow! That is such a complex question. Because there are so many different kinds of therapy and so many different ways that they administer therapy. And each therapist is their own person because they're a human. So each therapist does therapy slightly different than the others, and you just never know.  It's kind of like dating. You kind of have to weed out the frogs until you find the right therapist for you.

JANILEE: Weed out the frogs? I don't think I've ever heard that analogy before. But you're saying, like, weed out the frogs until you find the frog that actually turns into a human when you kiss it. Is that what you're referring to?

LARISSA: Yes. Like, “One must kiss many frogs to find their prince.”

JANILEE: Okay

LARISSA: That kind of a theory.

JANILEE: Okay.

LARISSA: Doesn't mean you need to go be kissing all your therapists. That's not what I'm saying.  

JANILEE: Don't do that.

LARISSA: No, you just need to interview. Check out psychology today. If you go on their website, you can do the Therapist Finder and then you can look it up by insurance, whether or not they're accepting patients, and what their specialities are. And that's usually the best way to go about it. But what’s best for my kiddo is not the type of therapy that's best for me. And the type of therapy that's best for me might not be what's best for Janilee, because I'm completely and utterly resistant to EMDR

JANILEE: And EMDR works very well for me. Yeah, I do want to add on to what Larissa was saying there. When it comes to finding a therapist, it is 100% up to you. And this is a very crucial point. Therapy is for you. Therapists get paid money.  So if you're paying for a service that doesn't work for you, change it. And that's a hard thing to understand that you have that right.

LARISSA: Yeah, you totally have that right.

JANILEE: I have had multiple therapists throughout my life, and I finally found one that clicked with me and might have heard me mention it, because every time I talk about my therapist, the one that worked really well for me is a trauma informed therapist. And I always use that phrase “Trauma informed,” because that is what was life changing for me. So if you want a recommendation, like, if you want a place to start looking, Janilee recommends: If anything in this podcast has ever resonated with you, look for trauma informed therapists. And that's all I'm going to say. Because like Larissa said, therapy is completely personal. It's up to everyone. I just personally think that when you have a lot of trauma that you've gone through, specifically if you've had it from the time that you were a child, think back to the Just Janilee episode of developmental trauma disorder. There's a certain understanding that comes with that that can help things be more holistic in nature, holistic being more broad and combining both physical and mental experiences into one.  

LARISSA: The therapists that I've had that have had the most impact on me were the ones that were able to intellectualize it, but in an empathetic way. For me, it's very difficult to find the right therapist, and you have to advocate for yourself a little bit, and that can be tough.

JANILEE: It can be

LARISSA: Especially when you're first starting out in this and you're like, “Oh, I'm allowed to have opinions? I'm allowed to have feelings?” 

JANILEE: “I'm allowed to be?!” 

LARISSA: It can be very difficult to walk into a therapy center and say, “Look, you know. I desperately need this” and have you know, I mean, locally, where we are, I know people who have been told: “You're not severe enough to go into our program,” and then they try and kill themselves two months later, and you're sitting there going, “Obviously they were severe enough.” When you are talking to these therapy intake places, when you're doing your intake, tell them just how bad it actually is. Don't mince your words, don't play down the situation. Don't minimize is the term, but tell them just how bad your bad days actually are. Otherwise they won't take you seriously.

JANILEE: Okay, Larissa, here's a follow up for you then. So we've talked in the past about how trauma dumping isn't necessarily a good or a helpful thing. I feel like trauma dumping can be useful once you find a therapist that works for you. So what would you recommend? How would you describe your worst day to really help advocate for yourself?  

LARISSA: You don't have to go in there and be like, “Here's my worst day, can I have a therapist?”

JANILEE: You can find out other things first, right?

LARISSA: Yeah.

JANILEE: So find out other things, but then if it gets to the point where you have to advocate for yourself, how are you going to advocate for yourself without trauma dumping?

LARISSA: So when I went in, I said, “I daily am impacted by what I've been through daily. I am struggling with intrusive thoughts. I am stable. I am not going to harm myself. I do not need to be admitted tomorrow—or today, but that could end up happening down the road if I don't intervene now.” I also said when they were like, “Well, you seem pretty stable. You seem like you're able to function.” And this was the county, so they're used to a different…crowd.

JANILEE: Definitely.

LARISSA: I was like, “Yeah, I can function. I can get my kid to and from school in therapy and feed her. But if that's all I can do in my day, I'm still not doing enough. And I'm still not doing enough is not what I meant. But I'm not. Okay, if I'm forgetting to shower for a week and I'm forgetting to take my meds and I'm considering thinking that I'm not doing well and I'm reactive to every little thing and I can't think straight and I'm bumping into curbs when I drive, like I'm driving around a bumper car track because I can't focus long enough. I obviously need a therapist and I obviously need a psychiatrist, and I obviously need something other than Ritalin or Ativan because that psyched my brain out even worse.” And then they were like, “Yeah, but you're not severe enough to need our county services.” And I had to say, “Except I feel I am.” And that was where they said, “Okay, then we will get you a therapist here,” because it is completely subjective how bad you are. They don't get to tell you how bad you are. They don't get to tell you you're not bad enough or you're too stable.  They can't make I mean, they can try and make that determination on you, but legally, if you're seeking therapy, they're supposed to give you care. Or at least that's this location.

JANILEE: Right? And also, I just want to refer us back to remember the Just Larissa. Episode where she talked about all of the resources available. There is a difference between, like, privatized companies versus government, or government funded ones. And then there's like, well, who takes my insurance? And there's so many different things to figure out that it can be really frustrating. So definitely refer back to that Just Larissa. Episode, find the resources that she shared with you, with us, and use what you can, right? And if you need to get to that point where you're advocating for yourself, we're very proud of you. There's nothing wrong with that. Also, if you don't get to that point, that's also okay. Because when I went to therapy, it was very much I had one person in my life who saw that I was having manic episodes and was concerned. Everybody else in my life was like, “Oh, you're happy. You're finally happy. Yay, this is good.” And I had one person in my life who had been through these manic episodes and knew that this wasn't happiness, this wasn't me getting over my depression, that this was actual mania and basically begged me to go to a therapist. Literally wrote down on a piece of paper, “This is the place I recommend you calling. This is a therapist that I had that worked for me. Maybe that therapist will work for you.” And even then, I didn't do anything. And then one day I called into work, and I just couldn't go to work because I was just too mentally sick. And I called that place on a whim. They had an appointment at 1:00 P.M. So, 3 hours after I called and I just went in.  It was like that. That was that. It just kind of happened all at once. There wasn't a lot of planning involved. I just went in, and my therapist was like, “Well, tell me about you.” And I'm like, “I don't think I need therapy. I'm only here because I'm trying to get my friend to shut up.”

LARISSA: And that probably made them a little bit more concerned, which is not a problem, because that's what you needed to say. I mean, that was the situation you were in.

JANILEE: Yeah.

LARISSA: And yeah, there is definitely a very big difference between state funded programs and privatized programs. And getting into the privatized programs in certain areas is easier than getting into state. And in certain areas, it's easier to get into state than privatized. And it just depends on where you live, like I said in the JL episode.  And it's also finding who's best for you and what kinds of programs are best for you. I do better with multiple interventions per week that handle {multiple things}. One handles the trauma that I'm going through every single week because apparently, I can't get out of it. One handles the trauma that I went through in my past. So I have life skills, trauma and skills to help me with my mental health stuff and then also do Biblical through my church. And so some churches even do that. If that's the path that you want to take. It definitely depends on who and what you've tried before. I would recommend going just to a church.  They are usually trained, but it's not always the same experience.  So it's really what works best for you.

JANILEE: Yeah.

LARISSA: And that's like Janelle said, it is completely individualized. Your therapeutic interventions.  Just like if you were a diabetic, they would customize your insulin to your body and how your body reacts to the insulin. Therapy is basically insulin for your brain and for your thoughts and for your life, not for your pancreas.

JANILEE: I love that you bring that up, because one of the things that really, really helps me is when people compare mental illnesses to physical illnesses. Right? Like, oh, you have a twisted ankle. Well, just go run a mile on it and it will be fine. It's like, no, you need to take care of the injury so that it doesn't get worse. Same thing. And I have to remind myself of these analogies when I have my bad mental health days. Even now  I have a sprained brain. I need to give it a day of rest.

LARISSA: Right. Unless you're me and you walk a mile around the track in a walking cast and crack it in the rain.

JANILEE: And what Larissa means by that is, don't do that. That's not good. We're not advocating for this.

LARISSA: Yeah. I was forced to by a PE teacher. This was a PE teacher who obviously had no idea what casts and water do together.  

JANILEE: Honestly, I didn't know that either. But you learn.

LARISSA: Yeah. You cannot get casts wet. They crack, they break, and then your healing does not go well. So yeah, don't do that.

JANILEE: I guess that explains why you have to wear cover it with bags in the shower or something. Okay.

LARISSA: They now make ones that are waterproof, but this was the 90’s. They did not have waterproof ones back.

JANILEE: I've only had one cast in my life and it was early two thousand s, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but no, yeah, it is. It's literally the same thing. It's like if you needed a cast for your leg, you wouldn't just go without because your leg is broken.

LARISSA: You wouldn't not get help. It's the same thing for your mind. Until more people start looking at mental health as just a subset of medicine, of body health, of physical health, it's still going to have that stigma that doesn't need to be there. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with getting therapy. There's nothing wrong with a tune up for your brain. You get a tune up for your car, go get a tune up for your brain.

JANILEE: It's important, it's true. And when it comes to this stage where you are actively seeking out therapy and advocating for yourself.  Just take a second and think about the fact that not only are you seeking out help for yourself, but a prerequisite to that is belief that you are worth getting help, right? So even in my situation where I just kind of it happened randomly one day, everything just lined up, and I was like, “Okay, apparently I'm sitting here in a therapist's office, and I'm just going to pretend that I don't need it, right?” There was some part of me that was like, “I want to be worth fighting for, and I can be a person to fight for me as well.” Yes, I used the cover of “I'm Doing this to shut my friend up,” right? But deep down, I did also realize that there was a part of me that wanted to be cared about, that wanted validation for everything that I had ever gone through.  And I was very, very protective and very cynical. And my therapist had to work really hard to get there and create a safe environment, which we'll talk about in just a second. But my therapist had to work really hard to break through all my walls to get me to allow myself to be vulnerable enough to be validated. But the whole time, there was a part of me that knew that there was a solution, and that part of me was kind of taking over a little bit, and it was scary. It was almost like I was losing control. Even though I was taking actions and I was taking control of my life, I felt like I was losing control because I was giving into all of these things that I had been told were weakness before that stigma that Larissa mentioned.

LARISSA: And unfortunately, it is something that abusers use. “Oh, therapy, you don't need therapy. Therapy is for the broken?” “Oh, you don't need therapy. We just pray away our pain.” “Oh, you don't need therapy.” It's this, it's that, or they'll be like, “You need therapy. I don't because I'm not broken. You are.” And unfortunately, in those two situations when therapy can be used to villainize you and you don't want to go.

I mean, I remember in my youth, going to therapy with certain people, and those people would disown me. And I went through, I believe it was like, 23 therapists in a year, because by session one or two, the therapist would hear somebody tell me, “You’re no longer my relative.” And all of a sudden, we'd have a new therapist before the next session. And it was finally when I told my court ordered therapist, because I had been so suicidal, that I would end up with a new therapist and that I couldn't do therapy with that relative for that reason, because I liked this person and I felt like this person was helping me and I didn't want to lose this person. It was finally, when that happened, that I finally was able to say, “You know what? This is what I need.” And the therapist was all, “Okay, then we won't do it. Although, just so you know, these people can no longer stop you from seeing me.” And that was where the moment that was that moment where I felt free finally to say what I needed to say and to finally open up. So, unfortunately, I know that some people that are listening to this podcast might not feel like they have the freedom to speak freely and openly. And it's finding that time and that space where you are and it's okay to take time to get there and to learn to trust yourself in that as well.

JANILEE: Yeah, and I think I mentioned this in a past episode I can't quite remember. But don't discount what therapists can see through.  I think out of any subset of individuals, therapists probably see the most bullshit just by the nature of their job. And so my therapist told me once that I “Was the personified patient,” which is basically when a parent comes and says, here's my child, fix them, the therapist sees through that and is like, “No, you just don't want your child to go against the world and that you have at home. And this child is responding in a normal way to really fucked up home life.” The therapist isn't I'm not saying, like, all therapists, but good therapists are not going to be like, “Oh, my goodness, that's it. You have to do everything your mom says. Your mom is always right. Your mom is this, that,” and the like, no, the therapist is going to see through that and be like, what do you want? Kind of like Larissa just said “They don't have control over you anymore.” It did remind me as well, just make sure that if you are going through someone else, like church or any sort of public program, just be aware of who your therapist has to report to in order for you to get that funding. And you can figure this out by literally just asking your therapist.  I remember I asked my therapist. I came in one day, and everything was really bad. And my therapist could tell, and she was a little worried because I was really suicidal at that point. And she asked me how my suicidal ideation was going. And in response to that, I did not answer her question. I looked at her and I said, “At what point do you have to report me to anyone outside of this office?” Like, at what point does what I tell you leave this room? At what point does someone else other than us too find out about it?

LARISSA: Yeah.

JANILEE: And I mean, for me and where I lived and that therapist and everything, I was told she didn't have to do any reporting unless I had an actual plan, unless I said, “Okay, I have a plan for this and that.” But talking about, like, I was driving, and someone almost hit my car, and then I was really upset that they didn't because I just wanted them to hit my car so I could die. She didn't have to tell anyone about that because it's not like I planned for that to happen. Right? No, that's still an ideation. It was when the ideation turned into a rock solid plan, and that's what it was for me and for where I lived. And every place is different. But the important thing is that you should be able to ask your therapist these questions, and they will answer. I mean, to be clear, my therapist was very worried about me in that instance, and she was like, “Why are you asking me this?” And was trying to very nicely just kind of was like, “Are you sure?” And I was like, “Pick out what exactly is going on and how far down exactly.”

LARISSA: Yeah, I would, too. As a nurse, I'd be like, “Okay, so how many things wrong with that question tonight?”

JANILEE: She did a very good job. And I, being me and being raised by a narcissist, I'm like, “I recognize this. I know what you're doing, and I'm not about to play that game. Answer my question.” And so she answered my question.

LARISSA: She's probing.

JANILEE: Yeah. I mean, just because they might probe a little bit to try and do their job well doesn't necessarily mean that they're shutting you down. But if you stick to it and you ask, “No, please answer the question,” then they'll answer, right? And like Larissa said, they have to tell you who they report to.

LARISSA: Right.

JANILEE: And so, when you're in these situations, remember, it all comes down to therapy is for you, whether it's money coming out of your own pocket or an insurance paying for it or someone else money is being exchanged. And this is for you and your life. The purpose is for you to improve your life. And you have all the cards.

LARISSA: Right

JANILEE: Don't feel bad about saying they're doing these things. Don't be rude or abrasive about it, but also realize that asking these questions straight up is not being rude. It's advocating for yourself, which probably feels uncomfortable because it's not something that we've done a lot up to this point.

LARISSA: It was very weird for me to finally advocate for myself and be like, look, this isn't okay. This is not right.  And I've had to do it a few times. I can advocate for others like nobody's business. I mean, working as a nurse in the prison, I learned how to do that real quick. And then working with developmentally disabled, you really learn because unfortunately it's a very underserved population. And I loved the fact that I was able to advocate for people who didn't have a voice. Advocating for myself even when I do have a voice, is actually really tough. And I get that and it's because it's just the underlying message I was told for so long. I went into my therapist's office last Monday because I see her every other week now and threw out so many Southern colloquialisms (I did not say that word right. But yeah,) that she was laughing and had to ask for clarification on a few of them. And then I'm like “And I know I'm deflecting, but if I don't just make jokes and laugh, I'm going to cry and I don't have time to break down.” And she goes, “Well, let's examine that.” I was like, “I don't want to.” She goes, “Well, let's do it anyway,”

JANILEE: Right? So each therapist, you have to develop that safety and that rapport with that therapist.

LARISSA: If you're in rural parts of the world, you're not going to have as much option in therapists. That might be difficult. It might be a little bit more of a “I'm going to take the best person in the situation for me in the moment” or “I'm going to go online and find somebody on zoom.”

JANILEE: Also remember that when it comes down to it, therapists just give advice. And as I've mentioned before, and I will undoubtedly mention it again, advice is just advice. Even if you can't find the perfect therapist for you and you are working the best you can with the person that you happen to be able to find afford in your area, it's just advice, right? And oftentimes, and this is something that my therapist told me at the very beginning was if you don't do anything outside of therapy, this is going to be a very long road. And obviously you are listening to this podcast, therefore you're doing things outside of therapy already. You are already trying to grow and improve. Like at this point, therapy is an extra resource for you. It's not going to be the only place that you go.

Really simple comparison here. I teach piano lessons and when my students practice and then they come back the next week, we can make a lot more progress and they can grow as a pianist a lot faster. If they don't practice outside of lessons, their progress is a lot slower. That simple.

LARISSA: You have to be willing to do the homework. It's not always easy and it's not always what you want to do. And you might be resistant to it. I mean, there have been homework assignments where I come back and I'm like, “You told me to find three things. I found one,” and they're all “Well, I'm proud of you for finding one.” And I'm all “Woohoo. So is my homework to find two more?”

JANILEE: Because what do you do? You're doing the best you can.

LARISSA: And as long as you're putting forth healing is effort. It takes effort to heal. It takes ten times more energy to heal what's been broken by somebody else than it does for that person to break you. And it's not fair. It's not right. It shouldn't. Because it's not your fault that you got broken because somebody else played with you wrong. For lack of a better analogy.  How do I explain what's in my brain?

JANILEE: Can I take a shot?

LARISSA: Yes, please.

JANILEE: It's not fair that it's a lot easier for them to break you than it is for you to fix yourself. But once you have gone through the healing process of fixing yourself, you're a lot more resistant to being broken in the same ways.

LARISSA: Yeah, definitely the case. I know I put up with a lot less BS now and will get myself out of a toxic situation a lot faster than I did in the past and won't put up with nearly as much. Yeah. I know to walk away. I know to let the person do what they're going to do and just go do my thing. And it's taken a lot of time and effort, but there's been a lot of break in my life too. It's okay for however long it takes. I mean, I've been in therapy, let’s see here, 3/4’s of my life, almost.

JANILEE: Yeah. And also when it comes to the homework, I like to think of it as homework can sometimes have this negative connotation.

LARISSA: Right.

JANILEE: Kind of like practicing piano. If you aren’t weirdly are obsessed and love the piano like me, it's not very fun. But the way that I prefer to think of it and I honestly had to make this choice, this shift in how I thought was, well, “My trauma and the stuff I've been through is affecting me in literally every aspect of my life. Twenty four seven. I cannot get away from it.  Doing the homework. It's not like I'm going to forget to do it. It's not like it's not going to be helpful because it's literally always happening.” So it's not like I have to sit down and dedicate time to doing the homework. I'll just be driving. And then this terrible traumatic memory will come up, and then I'll be like, “Well, there you go, therapist just did the homework.” You're going to do what you can do with it.

LARISSA: Exactly. Yeah. I like to think of it more as a practical application of what I'm learning. I like that. Or putting into practice what I'm learning. I learned something in one of my support groups this last couple of weeks, and it was about the definition of discipline.  And discipline is really just the training of your brain. So you're disciplining your brain to stop putting up with garbage.

JANILEE: And if you do like to intellectualize things, I would refer you back to the Just Janilee episode on neurobiology and neurophysiology so that you can see it on a very small, very exact level, but also understand that it applies on a greater level. I remember because I did all of this research on my own, my therapist was like, “Hey, do you know  what myelination is?” And I was like, “Yeah.” And she was like, “Oh, you do?” And I'm like, “Yeah, I'm sure not many people do. But I got curious, and I figured stuff out on my own, right? And so then I Googled,” right, knowing that I was like, doing these things on my own because I needed to have answers. She gave me more and more involved things for me to look into. “Well, next time that you're looking into things, maybe you want to look into this.” The book that we used at the beginning of this podcast a lot, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature People or Parents. Yeah, that book was recommended to me by my therapist. She recommended it to me four times before I ever picked it up and read it, though. If you don't do your homework, by the way, still show up to therapy. It's not like your therapist is going to be like

LARISSA: They take attendance. They do not grade your therapy.

JANILEE: Yeah. So I mean, still show up and be like, nope, didn't read the book you recommended. Again, still didn't read the book you recommended. You can still get good out of therapy.

LARISSA: Yeah. Just because you didn't manage to read the chapter or you didn't manage to find the three things you like about yourself, you were only able to list one that week, still show up because they're going to help you. And that's the whole point. Think of them as the tutor.

JANILEE: Here's another thing that I liked as well. There was one day, and I really, really did not want to go to I really did not want to go to therapy. And this friend that I mentioned earlier who had really wanted me to go to therapy very strongly, this friend was a coworker of mine, and I got off work early to go to therapy on these days. And I just mentioned, I was like, “You know, I don't think I'm going to go. I'm just going to stay. I don't want to go to therapy.” And this coworker, this friend of mine said, “You don't have to go in. Just go. Drive to the parking lot and call on your phone. Just sit in your car in the parking lot and talk on the phone to your therapist from the parking lot. Have a 15 minutes session instead of a 50 minutes session.” And I still wasn't sure I wanted to go. And so this friend literally walked me to my car and said, “You can do it. Just go to the parking lot and call.”

LARISSA: Exactly.

JANILEE: And if calling is hard, text, just text your therapist instead. Like, if you can't handle going in and having that in person communication and that's just too much for you, that doesn't mean that you have to just not go. There are different levels to which you can attend. And hey, if there are times when you can't go, that's also okay. That doesn't mean that you have to stop going forever. Just go back next week.

LARISSA: That's the wonderful thing about COVID is that they now have the ability most places now have the ability to do Zoom. So if putting on pants is too big of a task for the day, do a zoom appointment or do a telephone call. There have been times where I'm on my way to the courthouse because something happened and I'm calling my therapist because I'm supposed to have a session. And I'm like, “Hey, I'm in the car driving right now. I'm hands free. I have 5 minutes before I have to park and go inside the courthouse and file something.  I'm so sorry I'm going to miss today's session.” And they're like, “Well, it sounds like you're doing the best thing for you here's when your next appointment is.” And they understand it's okay having you know, if having to get dressed and look appropriate or whatever you feel you have to do to go into that session is too much, ask to call. They will understand that that's part of their job.

JANILEE: Also, if you don't want to look nice, that's also so okay. Yeah, you don't have to be getting I'm like thinking back to the getting back to that. I'm like thinking back. I'm like I was wearing leggings and T shirts and comfortable stuff always. My hair always looked terrible. I never looked nice for therapy.

LARISSA: I sometimes showed up to therapy after a 16 and a half hour shift at the prison in my scrubs, and my hair would look like medusa. I just showed up. And they don't care what well, I mean, they do care what you look like because it tells them, “Okay, this person's struggling.” They will take that into consideration, but they don't care that you didn't take time and effort. Like, you don't need a full face of makeup and a permed hair and perfect looks and the perfect outfit to go to therapy. No, you're thinking too much into it.

JANILEE: I remember when I was younger, I had someone tell me, like, I was leaving the house to go get some groceries at, like, 9:00 at night, and they were like, “You're wearing your pajama pants?” And I was like, “Yeah, what's wrong with that?” It was weird for them. It was not something that they would do, and so they were a little embarrassed for me, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean that I have to explain myself, right?

LARISSA: Exactly.

JANILEE: I remember in college, I especially had one roommate who was all about appearances, and I never fit that role, and I didn't have to explain myself, right? I just did what I could, and I made it work. And the thing is, like, everything that we're describing. If you had, let's say you were in a relationship with someone who would look at you and say you're leaving the house in pajama pants, they would most likely not leave it there. They would most likely make you change. They would guilt trip you. They would do any number of things to make sure that they were in control of what you look like when you left the house. And so us saying it really doesn't matter what you look like if you go of therapy, and if it's too hard to put pants on, just zoom in all of these things, it probably sounds a little foreign. It sounds a little unreal. Probably sounds like we're trying to sell you something. And we're not. This is just normal, healthy people who care about you more than they care about your appearance, more than they care about what you can do for them. Like what we're describing. This is a safe place. This is where you show up 100% as you are that day, no matter what.

LARISSA: And that's really how therapy needs to be for you. You need to find someone that you feel secure enough with to be the toddler running down the street in their diaper because the ice cream trucks in town.

JANILEE: And the thing is, if you don't have a safe environment, you can't really grow. I've mentioned and I've shared a clip of Matthias J. Barker before, and he had a video on instagram that I will find and I will share. But it was basically if you take someone and you give them a guitar and say you have the freedom to play a guitar, go. They're not going to be able to play the guitar. They're going to need someone who can teach them, and they're not going to learn very well if their teacher sucks. Right. And so therapy is a similar way where just because you're out of an environment doesn't mean that you can play the guitar. It doesn't mean that you don't need safe place or safe people or good, clear instruction. It just means the environment's different. Yes, but for you to take advantage of that environment requires you to change and you to grow, and that requires other people as well.

LARISSA: Exactly.

JANILEE: And not all people click with certain people, and that's okay doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you or them.

LARISSA: Exactly. And that took me a long time to realize that I am not everybody's cup of tea, and I was not meant to be everybody's cup of tea. I'm meant to be certain people's cup of tea and other people. That's okay. I don't have to be liked by everyone. I don't have to be adored by everyone. I don't have to care what other people think. I spent so long being told I did, and it's amazing that I don't, that I can just be

JANILEE: And if you're worried about, well, yeah, I don't have to care what my therapist thinks of me, but what about the people that they talk to about me? What are they going to think of me? They can't. They legally cannot. There are these things called HIPAA laws, which is essentially and this is in America, and I'm sure that in other countries, there's other versions of it, but it basically is you can't talk about patients, like, at all.

LARISSA: Yeah. So the only people as a nurse, I have to understand confidentiality extremely well, and even before HIPAA was a law, I had to understand confidentiality rules. Prior to that, you can only talk to the people that you are authorized to talk to. Let's say I was the nurse on your case and I needed to talk to the doctor. I can talk to the doctor, but only about the exact things that matter. Like, let's say you tell me 17 million things. I can only tell the doctor five of them because that's what the doctor needs. So it's only for the continuity of care, for your and others protection. Meaning, if you went in and said to a nurse, “I'm thinking about killing myself. I have motive, means, intent and plan.” I would have to call and get you some help. You can always turn it down. Unless they feel that you need a court order, it's unlikely that they would go that route.

JANILEE: And it's your protection from other people as well.

LARISSA: Yes.

JANILEE: My spouse or my partner was threatening to abuse or they push me down the stairs.

LARISSA: Yes.

JANILEE: Right. If you as a nurse were to see that as a pattern right. You would probably do something

LARISSA: It doesn't even have to be a pattern.

JANILEE: There you go.

LARISSA: As a mandatory reporter of abuse and all nurses in all 50 states are, so are therapists. If you went in and said, “I'm thinking of harming so and so and here's how,” or “I harmed so and so and here's how, and that person is at a risk of being harmed by you again,” I would have to call. If you were to say “So and so hit me and threatened to do it again for an adult,” I would have to call. If it were a child that came in and said, let's say I was doing pediatrics, (which I don't do peds) “So and so hit so and so,” and the child told me that, I would be required to call Child Welfare in the States. I do not know the laws outside of the United States on confidentiality, but I'm pretty sure it's pretty universal. They are not allowed to just share information. They have to have your permission, or there has to be an imminent risk of harm to yourself or someone else, or that harm has already occurred.  Those are the confidentiality laws.

JANILEE: And even that, it's not as if they're going around in a gossipy way.

LARISSA: It's very clinical. It's very this, then this, then this. This is what we have to do, so then we do this.

JANILEE: It's not “Oh, my gosh. Did you hear what Larissa said? Oh, man, she sounds crazy.” No one's doing that.  

LARISSA: No, and legally, they can't. I cannot tell you the number of times I've had to call Adult Protective Services or Child Protective Services, and I've only handled ten kids, so that should tell you a lot about calling Child Protective Services. And they don't gossip when you call, you state facts, and you state times, and you state what was said, and then you get off the call because you have other things to do.  You don't have time to be dealing with the gossip of it when you're talking to these people.

JANILEE: And they can't even talk to their partners or their family members or anything about you.  They can't talk to anyone else about you either, so don't have to worry too much about that. If it is something that concerns you, you can even just straight up ask. Okay? Like we mentioned before, okay? Who are you talking to about me? What are you saying? It's probably going to be a lot less juicy than you're anticipating. It's probably going to be pretty boring, in all honesty.

LARISSA: Yeah, it's probably going to be well, I told insurance I spent 50 minutes with you. Yes.  And I told my supervisor that I met with you.

JANILEE: There you go.  

LARISSA: And a lot of therapists don't take detailed notes specifically to protect you.  

JANILEE: My therapist didn't take notes at all. I know that she had to fill out notes because it usually has to be like, I met with this patient for this long, and also the notes that are taken are usually for  if I had to guess,  the notes that therapists do take are probably very similar to the notes that I take when I teach piano. “Okay, so we practiced this song today, and they only half mastered this concept. So I'm going to postpone learning about sharps until they can fully grasp dotted quarter notes.”

LARISSA: Exactly.

JANILEE: Those are the notes I take about piano students. They're really boring, but it does help me be a better piano teacher in the future.

LARISSA: Yeah. And usually there's a line that says, “Will continue to monitor” that's usually in the clinical or at least in nursing. I don't know about counseling.

JANILEE: Yeah.

LARISSA: “Will continue to monitor abnormal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.”

JANILEE: “Will continue to continue to monitor growth.” And there's also videos out there of people who are therapists who say, “Hey, here's what I write down in my notes.” And I've watched a couple of them, and they're all very boring. Like, yeah, that's pretty terrible. I probably wouldn't be interested in reading that.

LARISSA: Yeah, it's not the juicy stuff people think it is.

JANILEE: No, it's not.

LARISSA: One more thing I just want to really quickly add is that if you're worried because the therapist has a connection to another person in your life, like, let's say the therapist is your mother-in-law, that therapist has to recuse themselves. It is a standard of practice.

JANILEE: Larissa, can you define recuse for people who don't know?

LARISSA: Yes. It is a standard of practice that if you are related to or you have personal knowledge of a person from outside of the medical counseling professional, professional field, that you do not care for that person, that you transfer their care to someone else who does not have that personal bias or experience. And the reason why that is is because you could get it clouded, because you could accidentally slip up and say something, and you don't want to you don't want to risk your license. You worked really hard for that thing. And so licensed clinical social workers, licensed personal counselors, LPCs, LSCW, whatever the abbreviations are—anybody who has a license or is working on a license—doesn't want to risk that. So I've had people come in, and they have the same last name as me, and I'll go, “I can't take care of that person. They're related to me. I'll take the next two admissions.”

JANILEE: Even if you've never met them before?

LARISSA: Even if I've never met them before, I might have a connection to this person, and I'm not risking my license for that. And there is nothing wrong with that, that shows integrity. So if you go into a therapist's office and that therapist has a personal knowledge for example, I went into therapy with my ex-husband, and he had dated the therapist's daughter, been to the therapist's house, knew what kind of cars the therapist drove, had conversations with the therapist's wife. And I didn't even know for six sessions. That therapist no longer practice, this is as far as I know.

JANILEE: And once you do find out, you can report them, right?

LARISSA: Yeah.

JANILEE: And if you don't know, when you do find out, you can stop and switch therapists. You always have the power to change your therapist at any time. It doesn't have to be after the first session. It can be after ten sessions, it can be after a year, and you don't have to give a reason.  That's your right.

LARISSA: Yeah.

JANILEE: You don't even have to give a reason. You can say, I don't want to see this person anymore. I want to see someone new. They might ask why for, like, feedback reasons, but you don't have to answer that.

LARISSA: I mean, when I found that out, I was all, “What do you mean you know what kind of car this person drives? What do you mean you dated their daughter? What do you mean you've been to their home? I'm sorry, how long ago was this?!” And at that point, I was like, we're not going back. You can go back if you want, but I'm not

JANILEE: It doesn't matter how long ago it was. Any one of those is a singular reason to not go.

LARISSA: Exactly. And some things had been said during previous sessions that, at that point made me go, oh, I don't even want to be in this room anymore. This is not okay.

JANILEE: And that's why you tell because that automatically made it a non safe environment for Larissa. And you can't grow, you can't heal when you're too worried about how you're going to get stabbed in the back.

LARISSA: And I literally went into the next one or two sessions after things were said, going, “I don't even want to be here. I'm not working on this.” And he'd be like, “Well, what are you going to do if this doesn't change?” And I was like, “Then it won't happen. And I walk.: And I think the therapist was like, “Oh, my gosh. She's really not willing to change at all here.” And it wasn't that at all. It was that I didn't feel safe enough telling people what I was thinking or what I was doing.  What was being recommended wasn't safe for me.  

JANILEE: And to be clear, this is an example of a bad therapist. Good therapists won't try and gaslight you or manipulate you or make you feel bad or say you're not willing to change just because you're not feeling safe. Good therapists will recognize these things and they will recognize this is happening because you don't feel safe. Let's figure out why you don't feel safe and get back to a place where you do feel safe. Yeah. And certain therapists do certain things.

LARISSA: And one must kiss many frogs to find the right prince. It's the same principle for a therapist. It doesn't have to be a male. It could be a female prince. Princess works, too.  

JANILEE: Okay. Larissa. I love the TV show Friends. It's awesome. And I was listening to it while I was working, and then I keep listening to it while I make dinner. I usually just have a plane in the background. And an episode came up in my rewatching of the show that really caught my attention because I was thinking about this episode okay.  I was thinking about this episode of the podcast when I heard this episode of Friends sorry, the word episode around here a lot. Okay.  The episode of Friends is the one where Chandler tries to quit the gym.  Love that one. Because then Ross goes in and Ross ends up joining the gym.  Remember that episode for people who haven't seen the show? Here's a brief summary. At the beginning of the episode, we find out that Chandler has a gym card that he's been paying for for years. And he never goes to the gym. And his friends are like, “Dude, why are you paying for this if you don't actually go to the gym?” And he's like, “You don't think I want to quit?” He's like, “I can't.” Because basically this gym has really good marketing and really good manipulation techniques to keep people going to the gym, right? So Ross, being a good friend, says, “I'll go down to the gym with you.” And then Ross ends up getting pulled in by these really good marketing techniques. And so then they're like, “Well, how are we going to not pay for the gym?” And they decide that they're going to cancel their bank accounts. And it doesn't end up working. They end up with a joint savings account. And everyone's like, “Well, what are you going to use the joint savings account for? And they're like, I don't know, to pay for the gym.”

LARISSA: It's a really funny show.

JANILEE: It's really awesome. But what stood out to me was when Chandler goes in to quit the gym.  Ross is like, “You got this. You got this,” right? And Chandler walks up to the desk and he goes, “I want to quit the gym.” And the person is like, “Are you sure? Because you won't get access to this spa.” And he looks back at Chandler, looks back at Ross all scared. And then Ross is like, “Yeah, you got this.” And Chandler turns around and he repeats, “I want to quit the gym.” And he's like, “Are you sure? Blah, blah, blah.” And then Chandler just goes, “I want to quit the gym.” And so then later on in the episode when they're trying to cancel their bank accounts, Chandler looks at Ross and goes, “I want to quit the bank. I want to quit the bank.” And it stood out to me because it felt very much when I was first in therapy, I would say, “I want to quit the gym.” And the therapist would be like, “Well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And I would be like, “I don't understand that.” And I would just default to “I want to quit the gym.” Right?

When it comes to emotions, right? If you're not very well versed in emotions, you're probably going to walk around sounding a lot like, “I want to quit the gym. I want to quit the bank.”

LARISSA: “I want to quit this emotion. I want to quit this feeling. I want to quit this relationship. I want to quit this situation. I want to quit this behavior.”

JANILEE: Yes, very much so. And you just don't understand how and so if you end up repeating yourself, if you end up being like, I am out of words to say. I can't think of any new words to say. And you just go, “I want to quit the gym. I want to quit the bank.” That, that's huge. That's you expressing an emotion. It's you expressing something that you want and don't discount that. It's a desire. A good therapist will understand and be able to work with you to figure out what that emotion is and all of that kind of stuff. And we're going to start talking about emotions next week.

LARISSA: I'm actually a little nervous because I still struggle with them.

JANILEE: But like a good therapist will help you feel that emotion, right? And a good therapist will be able to simplify what they're saying and personalize it and relate it to you for you to understand it.

LARISSA: I actually had a very similar situation happen during my last session where I was throwing out those colloquialisms. I'm totally saying that word wrong, but I just don't have the energy to care.

JANILEE: I don't know. Sounds right to me. Sounds good.

LARISSA: Then yay. I'm sitting there and I'm like, “I am in the same situation with a different person now. And I know that doing the same thing twice, expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. But I can't do something different here because of the situation I'm in. What am I doing wrong?” And she looked at me and she goes, “Well, nothing.” And I'm all, “Then how do I get out of the same situation by doing the same thing again with a different result and expect a different result and not be insane?” And she goes, “You don't.” And I'm all, “I want to quit in this situation.” And she goes she goes, “In this situation, you don't get to have control.” And I looked at her and went, “I want to quit not having control.”  She looked at me, and it was literally quite the same as, “I want to quit the gym. I want to quit the bank. I'm done, right?” And she finally was like, “You're learning how to accept your power. That's what you have to do first.” But I don't want to have to do that first.

JANILEE: Well, and yet the thing is, if you can't change the situation that you're in, if it's not within your power, a good therapist isn't going to leave you high and dry. A good therapist is going to help you realize you can't quit the gym. You can't quit the bank. But here is what you can do.  It's helpful to just repeat those phrases, to literally have the words that you use and the way that you interact with these therapists so simplistic, “I want to quit the gym. I want to quit this situation. I don't want to relive this over and over again. I don't want to know that I can't do anything about this.” Simple, simple phrases are going to be the root of how we start expressing ourselves, for sure.

LARISSA: You can't express complexity until you understand and express simplicity.  

JANILEE: Mic drop.

LARISSA: That sounds really smart, but I didn't come up with that until just now. I'm really not this smart, but

JANILEE: I'm telling you, Larissa, when I edit these podcasts, I'm like, did I say that? Wow. I'm uncomfortable with how smart that sounds. 

LARISSA: I'm the same way. When I listen, I'm like, “Is that me? Are you sure that was me? I don't even remember saying that. But, man, did that sound good.”

JANILEE: Well, and that's kind of part of it as well. You can't do complex until you do simple, and that's part of it as well as, like, Larissa and I are like, we sound smart. You say these things and you hear these things, and that doesn't mean that you're going to remember them forever. Life is just one really long journey about learning how to heal and learning how to express emotions, learning all of the things. Like, life's just one long journey. You'll say things that are pretty impressive, and then if you record yourself talking about it 1 hour every week, then you'll be able to listen back to it and be like, “Oh, I was actually kind of smart.” But if you don't, that's still okay. It doesn't mean that those moments don't happen. It just means they're not recorded. So have a little confidence in yourself and have that faith to find that safe environment, to find that therapist that's going to be there for you, to find the words to say, I want to quit the gym. And Larissa and I will talk more about different emotions next week. We'll dive into that topic because it's a doozy of one, but don't discount your little repetitive, “I want to quit the bank. I want to quit the gym.” Don't discount what those little phrases can do when you're with the good therapist. They can take those, and they can use them to help you a lot and you're worth saving. And it's you keeping your eye on the prize.  And you were worth it.

LARISSA: Yeah, we're definitely worth it. And we're here for you, and a good therapist will be there for you. And it just takes time to find the right one in the right situation. And when you do, that's when the magic starts, along with listening in.  

JANILEE: Yes, keep listening in. And while we're just mentioning this, our PR guy, his name Andy. He's fun. He would like us to recommend that if you want to help us, you can just share the podcast with someone and be like, “Hey, I listened to this episode and it was really cool. And the hosts are really funny and also weird. Uncommonly wise at times, and also really stupid at times, too.” You can say whatever you want about us, really, but just share the podcast.

LARISSA: Word of mouth is big for helping us reach more people and helping us help others heal, which is really all we're wanting to do, that.

JANILEE: And you can rate the podcast wherever you listen to it. Please rate so that we know that we're helping you or not.

JANILEE: Yeah, and this is a new thing I actually added to the website in this past week. If you go to the website and scroll down to the bottom, it says contact. And if you click on that, there's a little form that you can fill out and just tell us what you think about the podcast and maybe what you want to hear about in the future so that we can make sure that the content that we're bringing you matches the content that you need in your life. Because we're doing this for you, for everyone who listens, and hopefully to help everyone heal and grow.

LARISSA: Yeah, we want to be useful and we want to be helpful and let us know. And in the meantime, we're villains.

JANILEE: Hi, my name is Janilee and I'm a villain.

LARISSA: Hi, my name is Larissa and I'm a villain.

BOTH JANILEE AND LARISSA: And this is VILIFIED.